tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post1972584400502855569..comments2024-03-06T19:21:15.708-05:00Comments on RealChoice: "But they've already made up their minds"Christina Duniganhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04785550737493692252noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-33350315334874917892009-06-26T18:34:45.377-04:002009-06-26T18:34:45.377-04:00From what I've seen, none of Tiller's pati...From what I've seen, none of Tiller's patients aborting for psychiatric reasons had referrals from psychiatrists, and there were no provisions made for psychiatric aftercare. In the old pre-legalization days the woman at least had to go to a psychiatrist and get him to rubber stamp her "need".<br /><br />Psychiatrists (at least in this county) who examine welfare clients to determine if their mental illness prevents them from participating in work or work preparation activities, insist on AT LEAST THREE VISITS before they'll even say that the patient needs time away from the demands of a work program. But Neuhaus wasn't even doing a basic psychiatric intake on women, and was prescribing abortions for them.Christina Duniganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04785550737493692252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-7443989146301752172009-06-26T08:02:35.634-04:002009-06-26T08:02:35.634-04:00You know, I was watching a show about gastric bypa...You know, I was watching a show about gastric bypass patients last night on TV. The people who wanted this surgery (who, by the way, were morbidly obese and had life-threatening conditions because of it, so they really did NEED the surgery) were first made to go through a rigorous mental AND physical evaluation process before they could be cleared for surgery. As a matter of fact, one woman was found to have too many mental issues to be immediately ready for the surgery, and the psychiatrist (who was on staff at the obesity clinic) along with the two surgeons who would be doing the gastric bypass surgery decided to come alongside the woman and support her until she was emotionally ready to go through with the surgery.<br /><br />I thought all this was a great example of a doctor really getting into the "whys and wherefores" of how their patient got into the trouble they are in (in this case, morbid obesity), and what their expectations are for the surgery, and what they really want to accomplish, etc. Also, they gave real informed consent to the ones preparing for surgery - detailed discussion of the risks, good support during the recovery period, nutritional guidance, etc. I would assume that the emotionally troubled ones would get psychological help as well (the psychiatrist mentioned that it might take 3 years of counseling for the one woman to work through her problems).<br /><br />Something to think about.army_wifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03769443501122541176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-91393812098647201722009-06-24T22:55:56.309-04:002009-06-24T22:55:56.309-04:00You can "declare" it as such until you&#...You can "declare" it as such until you're blue in the face -- who knows? it might be a good color on you! But it would be nice to know what EVIDENCE the opinion is based on. I may be of the opinion that you are a one-eyed, one-eared flying purple people-eater, but I daresay that anyone I tell that to would wish to know what that opinion is based on. I may be of the opinion that pork is good for you and carrots are bad for you, but unless I have evidence of such, people would be right to ignore me or to ask for some evidence to back up my claim. Quite frankly, don't get me started on ACOG's "opinion" because too many times it has not been based on EVIDENCE but political opinion, which is not worth much. I don't have *quite* the low opinion of the AMA as I do ACOG, but it's awfully darn close, especially after they declared home-birth to be unsafe despite the evidence. So, no, it's not okay with me to state and restate your opinion without evidence, because until you come up with something akin to EVIDENCE as opposed to OPINION, I will treat it as merely the deranged ravings of an internet loon, which is what MY opinion of you is tending towards. You see what opinions get you?Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118292622669944944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-6486893204963174722009-06-24T19:00:18.304-04:002009-06-24T19:00:18.304-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.OperationCounterstrikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877707857942926743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-70675549290330909042009-06-24T17:33:14.038-04:002009-06-24T17:33:14.038-04:00OC,
You are the one that put forward the point ci...OC,<br /><br />You are the one that put forward the point citing no sources except a vague one. I merely asked you for evidence, which I now must assume you do not have and cannot get. If I put forward a point that abortion increases the risk of secondary infertility or future preterm birth, I'd better be able to cite studies that say that; if you put forward the opposite position, you'd better be able to cite sources for that. Your refusal leads me to believe that you can't. I have studies that support what I say -- I don't need to find studies that support what you say, because the onus is on you. Just because an organization has a position statement doesn't mean it's built on actual evidence. As an example the SOGC (the Society of OB/GYN in Canada) just recently reversed their position on vaginal breech birth -- formerly the recommendation was 100% Cesarean; they've now said that doctors should study and become competent in vaginal breech birth so that that can be offered to women with a baby in breech presentation. They said that the studies on breech birth just didn't support the 100% C-section rate. But they held that position despite the studies for years. Then they looked more closely at the evidence. Then they switched their position.<br /><br />So, again, if you have no evidence in support of your opinion, that's fine -- just declare it as your opinion. If you can find some evidence in support of your opinion, I'll look at it. But I'm not going to do your research for you.Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118292622669944944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-34382057876638001972009-06-24T17:00:47.686-04:002009-06-24T17:00:47.686-04:00call it whatever makes you feel the most clever, d...call it whatever makes you feel the most clever, doesn't change that they're dead, and their mother will likely never carry a child to term. It doesn't surprise me one bit that you have no feelings of empathy for women such as her.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-74810400899153162652009-06-24T11:21:22.326-04:002009-06-24T11:21:22.326-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.OperationCounterstrikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877707857942926743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-48654618433016889032009-06-24T10:26:23.973-04:002009-06-24T10:26:23.973-04:00I have a friend who had a late second trimester ab...I have a friend who had a late second trimester abortion when she was 14. When she was in her 20s she lost her twins at the same gestational age (22 weeks) because of the damage done to her cervix. 3 dead babies, one childless mother. That's enough source for me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-34831098157504102422009-06-24T10:04:01.460-04:002009-06-24T10:04:01.460-04:00Kathy, google it. You'll find 'em. The mai...<i>Kathy, google it. You'll find 'em. The mainstream orgs like AMA and ACOG and all the Surgeon Generals' offices and all my OB/GYN profs in med school are enough source for me.</i><br /><br />Oh, you mean you don't have actual proof, like studies. Well, whenever you can come up with them, feel free to let me know. I'm not going to do your research for you, although Google Scholar might be a good place to start. <a href="http://www.aaplog.org/downloads/AbortionComplications/General%20comments%20and%20current%20literature%20on%20induced%20abortion%20and%20pre-term%20birth.pdf" rel="nofollow">Here</a> is a pdf which discusses the link between prior abortion and future preterm birth, discussing several studies in particular. Until you have any actual rebuttal for that that can be verified, this discussion is pointless, because you could be a bored prisoner with access to a medical dictionary for all I know, pretending to have been a med student who failed.<br /><br />And, actually, the national C-section rate in the US is 31.7% for the latest figures, and likely going up higher. So we generally say "about 1/3 of all births end in a C-section." There is controversy regarding VBAC (not "cervical" birth, but vaginal birth), but this is primarily driven not by evidence but by defensive medicine and malpractice insurance companies. The evidence shows a uterine rupture rate of about 0.5% (depending on the study) for a planned <a href="http://womantowomancbe.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/risk-of-uterine-rupture-in-vbac/" rel="nofollow">VBAC</a> in the absence of induction or augmentation agents; and a percentage of those "ruptures" are actually the less severe "dehiscence" or "windows" in the uterus, which may even be asymptomatic and therefore not a problem to either mother or baby. Even the true ruptures are not necessarily lethal to the baby -- a lot of factors go into that discussion, including how fast an emergency C-section can be done. So I would not say that "a good deal of the time" you do need a repeat C.Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118292622669944944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-26253171492811073522009-06-24T06:56:09.877-04:002009-06-24T06:56:09.877-04:00"Lil, at least you're consistent and beli..."Lil, at least you're consistent and believe that doctors are absolved from all responsibility for the well being of self-referred patients."<br /><br />I'm not saying they are absolved from all responsability - I specifically wrote that if the woman wants boobs she can't walk with or its her 17th surgery - then he should not do the surgery. I want to know where the line between Dr and Patient responsability lies and on what basis would somebody be seen as not of sound mind to be able to make their own decisions?Lilliputhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10793985988929869028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-72653403970846060372009-06-24T00:39:22.995-04:002009-06-24T00:39:22.995-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.OperationCounterstrikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877707857942926743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-49773329665301973462009-06-24T00:36:16.952-04:002009-06-24T00:36:16.952-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.OperationCounterstrikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877707857942926743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-55906803341150487502009-06-24T00:14:47.884-04:002009-06-24T00:14:47.884-04:00Kathy, google it. You'll find 'em. The m...Kathy, google it. You'll find 'em. The mainstream orgs like AMA and ACOG and all the Surgeon Generals' offices and all my OB/GYN profs in med school are enough source for me. <br /><br />Remember as you google, crank sites run by right-to-lifers don't count, only MAINSTREAM medical organizations. And Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons does not count.<br /><br />Now someone's gonna say, AMA and ACOG and WHO and whatever the professional association of epidemiologists is, those are all pro-abortion sites, biased. Suuuure. How about the US Surgeon Generals under Reagan and both Bushes? If abortion causes subsequent problem pregnancies, why is it that NO US Surgeon General has ever said anything about it? Wouldn't it be the USSG's job to warn everybody? <br /><br />Here's an exercise for you. Go to your GYN and ask about it. "Should a pregnant woman considering abortion worry about danger to future pregnancies?" If the answer is anything but "no, almost never", your GYN is committing malpractice.<br /><br />Sorry but facts are facts, boss.OperationCounterstrikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877707857942926743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-55660215378651385982009-06-23T23:16:15.277-04:002009-06-23T23:16:15.277-04:00OC --
That's because there is much MORE evide...OC --<br /><br /><i>That's because there is much MORE evidence that abortion is NOT linked to future pregnancy complicataions. </i><br /><br />Care to cite your sources for that?Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118292622669944944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-2219349761732134472009-06-23T19:51:34.032-04:002009-06-23T19:51:34.032-04:00Lil, at least you're consistent and believe th...Lil, at least you're consistent and believe that doctors are absolved from all responsibility for the well being of self-referred patients.<br /><br />OC, you just keep repeating that to yourself.Christina Duniganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04785550737493692252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-52662644095218986522009-06-23T19:02:47.435-04:002009-06-23T19:02:47.435-04:00Why do you think women don't give informed con...Why do you think women don't give informed consent before their abortions??? They do, just like before any surgical/medical procedure.<br /><br />And you wrote: "Nobody informs her of the risk that she might not be able to carry a future pregnancy to term -- despite decades of evidence linking abortion to future pregnancy complications."<br /><br />That's because there is much MORE evidence that abortion is NOT linked to future pregnancy complicataions. <br /><br />There are always SOME studies which get the wrong answer, because of statistical noise. You could find some studies that say smoking PREVENTS lung cancer. Should we be telling patients about those studies? If not, why not? Because we know they got the wrong answer.OperationCounterstrikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877707857942926743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-86798562770137455122009-06-23T18:46:05.835-04:002009-06-23T18:46:05.835-04:00Christina,
The Dr is a plastic surgeon not a psy...Christina, <br /><br />The Dr is a plastic surgeon not a psychologist or a therapist - or are you suggesting that any woman who wants breast enhancement must be forced to have a therapy session before seeing the plastic surgeon?<br /><br />Under what conditions would you consider it appropriate for a woman to have a breast enlargement? There is no shadow of doubt that on average, men like bigger boobs - evidenced by the porn stars and pin up girls that do the most work - at least its the case here in the UK? <br /><br />So if a women walks into a plastic surgeon to have a breast enhancement to make more money or attract or keep a guy and it doesn't work out, she has to deal with it - that's her lesson. But because a tiny minority don't think things through - it doesn't make it right to send the rest for a compulsary therapy session to make sure they know what they are doing?<br /><br />If she says she wants breasts so large she cannot walk or she's there for her 17th operation - then yes the Dr is a quack for giving her what she wants as she is obviously not well. But if a wome has a breast implant to keep a guy and it backfires and he leaves - maybe she'll get the epiphany that he's an idiot and she's much better without him.<br /><br />That's life!Lilliputhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10793985988929869028noreply@blogger.com