tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post7038266329467558152..comments2024-03-06T19:21:15.708-05:00Comments on RealChoice: Today's anniversariesChristina Duniganhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04785550737493692252noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-90593648808416436382010-06-22T22:07:47.737-04:002010-06-22T22:07:47.737-04:00Rupert, my life is busy right now and will be busy...Rupert, my life is busy right now and will be busy for the next couple of weeks, so I may not be a regular correspondent on this, but will try to keep up the conversation.<br /><br />Do you really believe that being able to see trees and animals makes you a person? Or touching walls and furniture? Or smell flowers and food?<br /><br />Fetuses can see -- that's an old trick to get babies to turn to a better position (either from breech to vertex, or from facing the mother's front to her back) -- shine a bright light on the mother's belly.<br /><br />Fetuses can touch -- they suck their thumbs and play with their umbilical cords, and kick and push back when their mothers press on their stomachs. In fact, my older son would always do that, like a game -- I'd push on my belly, and he'd kick me, almost every single time.<br /><br />Fetuses can smell whatever is in their environment, which is basically amniotic fluid. They can also taste it. Amniotic fluid changes its smell and taste depending on what the mother has eaten. Babies just a few hours old can identify their mothers by scent, turning toward the pad soaked with their own mother's breastmilk, rather than another mother's breastmilk or any other substance.<br /><br />Fetuses can hear things -- I remember reading stories of babies who have been quieted by hearing songs or the voices of people they heard (primarily mother and father) in utero, when they heard them as newborns and infants. And studies <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/story?id=8083181&page=1" rel="nofollow">like this</a> as well.<br /><br />Fetuses have all their senses; but even if they didn't, if you say that they are sub-human because they can't see or hear, then you would say that born people who can't see or hear are not human either.<br /><br />Do you have proof that there is no god? Evolution presumes that there is no god -- everything is based on that presumption. That is not science. That is presumption. It leaves out one of the possibilities at the outset. I agree with you that IF there is no god, then everything must have made itself from nothing -- but that's the "non-god of the gaps" -- "well, we have no evidence of this, but we're here so it must have happened that way." What evidence do you have that life came from non-life? What evidence do you have that something came from nothing? What evidence do you have that there is no god? Why are there natural laws, instead of chaos, if everything is just chance and accident? Where is all the anti-matter that the Big Bang predicts?Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118292622669944944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-23933837192060730592010-06-18T19:17:25.106-04:002010-06-18T19:17:25.106-04:00So a fetus can see trees and animals? It can touch...So a fetus can see trees and animals? It can touch walls and furniture? It can smell flowers and food cooking? Yes, I know a fetus can hear things but that's not all the senses is it?<br /><br />Yes I am a person who knows of the truth of evolutionary law Kathy. And yes, there is no proof of god. Every scientific, physical and natural discover made continues to preclude the possibility of a higher entity. The 'god of the gaps' is rapidly disappearing. Can you name one evidential scientific discovery where the answer is god?<br /><br />That's right, we are descended from the same pond scum as other life forms. We have been lucky enough to have developed higher intelligence, self-awareness, sentience, language, writing, tools, transport etc. etc. This does mark us as different. Reality. That's the difference between us and mold.Ruperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16141432408537488025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-75412616602547113112010-06-18T09:11:25.803-04:002010-06-18T09:11:25.803-04:00No, one minute the baby is inside his or her mothe...No, one minute the baby is inside his or her mother, and the next it is outside. It is at conception that "one minute it is not in the world, the next it is." That is, prior to conception, there are just sperm and an egg in existence, but when they join there is something there that wasn't before, due to the mixing and mingling of genetic material.<br /><br />Oh, I assumed you were an evolutionist, since you said "there is no proof of any god". Logically, if there is no god, then there is no being who could have created this universe and all that it contains, which means that it must have arisen entirely by chance and happenstance. This means that humans were not specially created but instead descended from a common ancestor along with all other life forms, so what intrinsic difference is there between Hitler killing millions of humans in Auschwitz ovens and you spraying bleach on mold? We're just rearranged pond scum, when it comes down to it, and not really that much different from the apes, except for less hair and more intelligent.Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118292622669944944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-39471292783454821142010-06-18T00:56:29.658-04:002010-06-18T00:56:29.658-04:00This is becoming like sparring practice Kathy! Not...This is becoming like sparring practice Kathy! Not that I have participated, I eschew violence.<br /><br />No, its not intrinsically the same. There are numerous differences. One minute it is not in the world, the next it is. Understand?<br /><br />How many biblical references can you find regarding the various uses of animals? Who said we are just glorified apes? Not me. Anyway, we do not kill them except for safety or when hunters do so (which I disagree with).<br /><br />I assume a full investigation will be carried out regarding what you say took place in Belgium and any appropriate penalties applied.Ruperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16141432408537488025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-31855818243075790732010-06-17T23:05:28.795-04:002010-06-17T23:05:28.795-04:00Why the big difference at birth? One minute after ...Why the big difference at birth? One minute after birth the baby is intrinsically the same as one minute before birth. The baby is neither more nor less human; he or she is only two minutes older. What is the logical reason for saying that killing a creature prior to birth is not murder, but killing the same creature after the birth is murder?<br /><br />What intrinsic value do humans have? And why do unborn humans not have that value? Why don't animals have intrinsic value, if humans are just glorified apes?<br /><br />Also, since you brought up euthanasia -- have you heard that there was a recent report from Belgium, I believe it was, in which nurses who performed "euthanasia" were questioned as part of a study and a significant percentage (I think it was 50%, but I'd have to find the report again just to make sure) said that they had killed someone, um, "euthanized" a person without consent from that person? The nurses said they were sure that the person wanted to die, even though the person did not tell them that. Does it bother you that some people may be being killed while they want to live?Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118292622669944944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-49010141278945284152010-06-17T21:11:08.577-04:002010-06-17T21:11:08.577-04:00I'll answer your questions in reverse Kathy as...I'll answer your questions in reverse Kathy as I feel it may build a clearer picture that way.<br /><br />Killing of animals for food or safety reasons I accept. Hunting for pleasure I do not approve of but accept.<br /><br />I do not believe there should be a legal cut-off time for abortions. I may not always be happy about that but I accept it. It is rarely done without good cause. If it is done without good cause then I agree it needs to be looked into.<br /><br />I am a supporter of euthanasia. But that of course only applies to our own choices. If a person is legally classed as 'brain-dead' or similar then yes, the family should have the option of turning off life-support.<br /><br />Once a child is born I would generally consider them to possess the same status as you and I. There are of course cases where the same conditions may apply as for an adult who suffers a debilitating event.Ruperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16141432408537488025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-10451750493753703512010-06-17T20:45:19.074-04:002010-06-17T20:45:19.074-04:00No, not necessarily. Some people would argue that...No, not necessarily. Some people would argue that parents should be legally able to kill their children up to the time of "self-awareness" which they define as any time between about 18 months and 3 years of age. This is partly due to their inability to be self-sufficient. Others argue that it should be legally permissible to kill those who suffer from some sort of major physical or mental disability, regardless of their age -- whether the disability is discovered in infancy, as the result of an accident as an adolescent or adult, or dementia or Alzheimer's as a senior citizen.<br /><br />So, when you do believe that there should be a cut-off time for legal abortion? About 24 weeks gestation) -- which is the time when over half of babies can "respire and digest of their own accord" outside the womb? Or would you extend the right to legally kill without murdering those who are on assisted breathing or who receive their nutrition intravenously?<br /><br />Why or why not? Oh, you also forgot to tell me why you limit the definition of "murder" to only humans -- why single out humans if we're just basically elevated apes?Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118292622669944944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-66172369364785740182010-06-17T19:20:13.907-04:002010-06-17T19:20:13.907-04:00Kathy, you continue to deliberately misconstrue an...Kathy, you continue to deliberately misconstrue and misrepresent what I say.<br /><br />You know I meant 'self-sufficient' as in being able to respire and digest of their own accord. Not earn an income, drive or sign contracts.Ruperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16141432408537488025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-9779132323015798642010-06-17T18:56:29.863-04:002010-06-17T18:56:29.863-04:00So, I guess that leaves children up to the age of ...So, I guess that leaves children up to the age of 18 open to being killed without their killers being murderers, since they are hardly "self-sufficient."Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118292622669944944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-55432452967386993262010-06-17T18:31:38.967-04:002010-06-17T18:31:38.967-04:00GG, it's not about being 'small and vulner...GG, it's not about being 'small and vulnerable'. It is not about 'might is right'.<br /><br />It is murder when it is a self-supporting human being with stand-alone respiratory and gastro-intestinal systems.<br /><br />Animals aren't human and fetuses aren't self-supporting.<br /><br />Does that answer your question too Kathy?Ruperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16141432408537488025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-54072896905238586352010-06-17T09:05:43.225-04:002010-06-17T09:05:43.225-04:00I'm just trying to get an answer to my questio...I'm just trying to get an answer to my question. You defined murder based on the victim having a "complete respiratory and gastro-intestinal systems," but for some reason exclude animals. Why is it not murder for humans to kill animals, nor for animals to kill humans? Yet you believe that *something* is called murder, which with the exclusion of animals would then be limited to "humans killing humans." You seem to draw back from that definition, though. Why?Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118292622669944944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-14387626321665075362010-06-17T07:25:08.549-04:002010-06-17T07:25:08.549-04:00Rupert, you don't seem to get that coming to p...Rupert, you don't seem to get that coming to prolifers with "But the fetus NEEDS its mother so desperately" doesn't make us say, "Oh! Gosh! You're right! The smaller and more vulnerable and dependent somebody is, the more okay it is to kill them!"<br /><br />It's the very vulnerability and defenselessness and helplessness and dependancy of the fetus, as of the baby, that makes it so abominable to kill it. You're going after the most helpless and vulnerable people, and trying to justify it on the grounds of their vulnerability and helplessness. That's going to make you seem like more of a monster to us, not less.<br /><br />Your ethos is "Might makes right". We disagree.Christina Duniganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04785550737493692252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-62886617641003149062010-06-16T23:16:08.376-04:002010-06-16T23:16:08.376-04:00Nice try Kathy :-)Nice try Kathy :-)Ruperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16141432408537488025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-6070645859671183322010-06-16T23:11:30.280-04:002010-06-16T23:11:30.280-04:00So, your definition of "murder" is "...So, your definition of "murder" is "humans killing humans"?Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118292622669944944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-85677837485031818542010-06-16T22:23:21.015-04:002010-06-16T22:23:21.015-04:00No no, you misunderstand. Humans killing animals, ...No no, you misunderstand. Humans killing animals, whilst not always nice, is not murder. Any more than an animal killing a human is murder.Ruperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16141432408537488025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-69340385706349446002010-06-16T22:16:08.629-04:002010-06-16T22:16:08.629-04:00So, it's murder to kill a shark or snake, sinc...So, it's murder to kill a shark or snake, since they have complete resp/gastro systems?Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118292622669944944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-86629164024896542502010-06-16T21:00:12.114-04:002010-06-16T21:00:12.114-04:00Yes, if Christina kills me that is murder.
The re...Yes, if Christina kills me that is murder.<br /><br />The respiratory and gastro-intestinal systems of a fetus are not self-supporting, they rely on the mother until birth.<br /><br />If a shark or a snake kills a human is that murder?Ruperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16141432408537488025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-44730189415174550762010-06-16T20:54:28.067-04:002010-06-16T20:54:28.067-04:00What about if Christina kills you? Would that be m...What about if Christina kills you? Would that be murder then? Yes, I'm exaggerating to prove a point. What makes it murder? All animals have their "own complete respiratory and gastro-intestinal systems"; is it murder to kill them? [And I'm not totally exaggerating here, since many animal rights activists say "Meat is murder," and you may be one of them for all I know.]<br /><br />Why is it murder to kill you or me who have complete resp/gastro systems, but not a human (or animal) fetus?Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118292622669944944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-40436708319001566282010-06-16T20:50:23.763-04:002010-06-16T20:50:23.763-04:00"We have our own complete respiratory and gas..."We have our own complete respiratory and gastro-intestinal systems."<br /><br />So does a human fetus.Christina Duniganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04785550737493692252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-1242778931711939112010-06-16T19:19:04.908-04:002010-06-16T19:19:04.908-04:00Murder is if you kill me or I kill you.
We have ou...Murder is if you kill me or I kill you.<br />We have our own complete respiratory and gastro-intestinal systems.Ruperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16141432408537488025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-86632749952587855972010-06-16T11:50:57.550-04:002010-06-16T11:50:57.550-04:00How would you define murder?How would you define murder?Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118292622669944944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-84756122353296474922010-06-16T00:13:47.757-04:002010-06-16T00:13:47.757-04:00There is no murder going on here.
Stalin? Apples ...There is no murder going on here.<br /><br />Stalin? Apples Kathy, apples.Ruperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16141432408537488025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-89372555635817262012010-06-15T23:38:19.370-04:002010-06-15T23:38:19.370-04:00Yes, I should just be non-emotional about the murd...Yes, I should just be non-emotional about the murder of innocent humans. Kinda like Stalin -- he was a good guy, wasn't he?Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118292622669944944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-17189596917635294392010-06-15T21:52:42.469-04:002010-06-15T21:52:42.469-04:00Kathy, I am not happy that it is a problem for you...Kathy, I am not happy that it is a problem for you. And even less happy that you find it scary that I do not.<br /><br />Just remember that this is due to factors which make the whole issue emotive for you.<br /><br />If I had been aborted as a fetus, I daresay I wouldn't be too concerned about it. I look out for those who are alive amongst us.<br /><br />I am as worried about what happens after I die as I am about what took place before I was born - think about it.Ruperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16141432408537488025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8395646.post-36734754061776614212010-06-15T20:22:18.008-04:002010-06-15T20:22:18.008-04:00The reality is that a genetically unique human is ...The reality is that a genetically unique human is being killed, and I have a problem with that. It is also scary to me that you are "quite comfortable" with it... but I daresay it's because you're no longer a fetus, so you're not vulnerable. It's a pity you don't look out for those who are.Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118292622669944944noreply@blogger.com