Sunday, February 28, 2010
Recent searches: "defective" fetuses, and more
Atheist Jeremy prompts review of abortion justifications
Searching for posts for a blog roundup found me a very interesting 90% pro-life atheist's perspective of abortion. Jeremy opposes abortion except for "hard cases", and ponders briefly what the numbers are.
This Guttmacher Institute report notes the reasons women gave for undergoing abortions. The women could check multiple reasons, so the totals add up to more than 100%.
Not surprisingly, the vast majority cited social reasons. Not ready/poor timing was cited as the primary reason by 25%, can't aford baby by 23%, having completed childbearing by 19%, relationship issues for 8%, lack of maturity in 7%, interference with school or career in 4%, and 6% saying "Other", for a total of 92% giving social reasons as primary reasons for abortions. That leaves just 8% of abortions being for "hard cases".
Let's look at those "hard cases".
"Fetal indications"
The survey found that 13% of women reported "possible problems affecting the health of the fetus" as contributing reason for abortion, with 4% citing it as the primary reason. In no cases did the survey note a confirmed diagnosis of a severe fetal abnormality. Rather, the paper notes, "Women who felt that their fetus's health had been compromised cited concerns such as a lack of prenatal care, the risk of birth defects due to advanced maternal age, a history of miscarriages, maternal cocaine use and fetal exposure to prescription medications."
This means that among "hard case" abortions for "fetal indications", cited as a primary reason for abortion by only 4% of aborting women, the vast majority of those are self-referred due to a perceived elevated risk of fetal problems, and not due to referral after a confirmed diagnosis. Are these women being counseled about the real risks of giving birth to a child whose health or well-being is compromised? Is anybody aware of any research into this area?
And if only a tiny proportion of 4% of abortions are done for confirmed fetal health problems, why do prochoice organizations focus so much not only on confirmed fetal health problems, but on the most dramatic ones, such as anencephaly, rather than on cleft palate, club foot, and other reasons women seek abortions -- particularly late abortions -- under the umbrella of "fetal indications"?
"Maternal indications"
Of women completing the survey 12% cited "physical problems with my health" as a contributing reason for undergoing an abortion. Only 3% cited personal health concerns as the primary reason. As with "fetal indications", again, the researchers cited no examples of women being referred for abortions due to diagnosed life-threatening conditions; they seemed to be self-referred based on their own perception of risk. "Concerns about personal health included chronic and life-threatening conditions such as depression, advanced maternal age and toxemia. More commonly, however, women cited feeling too ill during the pregnancy to work or take care of their children."
First of all, though untreated depression can be life-threatening, depression can be treated, even during pregnancy. Advanced maternal age as a "life threatening" and "chronic condition" seems to be taking a bit of license with words. I can't imagine a conscientious doctor referring a woman suffering from toxemia to an outpatient abortion facility. And toxemia, while life-threatening (far too life-threatening to be treated in an outpatient setting), isn't chronic. Again, the authors are taking a bit of license with words.
I don't want to understate the distress of women "feeling too ill during the pregnancy to work or take care of their children." Hyperemesis gravidarum, for example, is truly debilitating at its worst. But allowing these women to be driven by despair to abort wanted pregnancies strikes me as pretty heartless. Doctors ought to be providing adequate care to these women.
And, again, with only a miniscule percentage of 3% of women actually facing abortion due to confirmed, serious health problems, why do prochoice spokespersons try to act as if such abortions are fairly typical?
Remaining "hard cases"
Of the surveyed women, 1% cited rape as a contributing reason for the abortion (with less than half a percent giving rape as the primary reason), and less than half of one percent cited incest as either a contributing or primary factor. And, just as with health concerns, one might question easily if simply abandoning the victim to abortion is as compassionate as it's traditionally taken to be.
A look at "hard cases" really raises more questions than it answers.
Thanks, atheist Jeremy, for prompting this little bit of research!
This Guttmacher Institute report notes the reasons women gave for undergoing abortions. The women could check multiple reasons, so the totals add up to more than 100%.
Not surprisingly, the vast majority cited social reasons. Not ready/poor timing was cited as the primary reason by 25%, can't aford baby by 23%, having completed childbearing by 19%, relationship issues for 8%, lack of maturity in 7%, interference with school or career in 4%, and 6% saying "Other", for a total of 92% giving social reasons as primary reasons for abortions. That leaves just 8% of abortions being for "hard cases".
Let's look at those "hard cases".
"Fetal indications"
The survey found that 13% of women reported "possible problems affecting the health of the fetus" as contributing reason for abortion, with 4% citing it as the primary reason. In no cases did the survey note a confirmed diagnosis of a severe fetal abnormality. Rather, the paper notes, "Women who felt that their fetus's health had been compromised cited concerns such as a lack of prenatal care, the risk of birth defects due to advanced maternal age, a history of miscarriages, maternal cocaine use and fetal exposure to prescription medications."
This means that among "hard case" abortions for "fetal indications", cited as a primary reason for abortion by only 4% of aborting women, the vast majority of those are self-referred due to a perceived elevated risk of fetal problems, and not due to referral after a confirmed diagnosis. Are these women being counseled about the real risks of giving birth to a child whose health or well-being is compromised? Is anybody aware of any research into this area?
And if only a tiny proportion of 4% of abortions are done for confirmed fetal health problems, why do prochoice organizations focus so much not only on confirmed fetal health problems, but on the most dramatic ones, such as anencephaly, rather than on cleft palate, club foot, and other reasons women seek abortions -- particularly late abortions -- under the umbrella of "fetal indications"?
"Maternal indications"
Of women completing the survey 12% cited "physical problems with my health" as a contributing reason for undergoing an abortion. Only 3% cited personal health concerns as the primary reason. As with "fetal indications", again, the researchers cited no examples of women being referred for abortions due to diagnosed life-threatening conditions; they seemed to be self-referred based on their own perception of risk. "Concerns about personal health included chronic and life-threatening conditions such as depression, advanced maternal age and toxemia. More commonly, however, women cited feeling too ill during the pregnancy to work or take care of their children."
First of all, though untreated depression can be life-threatening, depression can be treated, even during pregnancy. Advanced maternal age as a "life threatening" and "chronic condition" seems to be taking a bit of license with words. I can't imagine a conscientious doctor referring a woman suffering from toxemia to an outpatient abortion facility. And toxemia, while life-threatening (far too life-threatening to be treated in an outpatient setting), isn't chronic. Again, the authors are taking a bit of license with words.
I don't want to understate the distress of women "feeling too ill during the pregnancy to work or take care of their children." Hyperemesis gravidarum, for example, is truly debilitating at its worst. But allowing these women to be driven by despair to abort wanted pregnancies strikes me as pretty heartless. Doctors ought to be providing adequate care to these women.
And, again, with only a miniscule percentage of 3% of women actually facing abortion due to confirmed, serious health problems, why do prochoice spokespersons try to act as if such abortions are fairly typical?
Remaining "hard cases"
Of the surveyed women, 1% cited rape as a contributing reason for the abortion (with less than half a percent giving rape as the primary reason), and less than half of one percent cited incest as either a contributing or primary factor. And, just as with health concerns, one might question easily if simply abandoning the victim to abortion is as compassionate as it's traditionally taken to be.
A look at "hard cases" really raises more questions than it answers.
Thanks, atheist Jeremy, for prompting this little bit of research!
Sunday Blog Roundup
At any rate, The Inquisitr does note Angie Jackson's exhibitionist pleas for validation. The mutable backstory. The feeble claims of her life being in danger. It's well worth a read.
As for The Inquisitr's question, "do you believe her use of social media during her abortion helped or harmed women in the same situation?" It depends on what you mean by "in her situation." I think anything that gets people talking -- and more to the point, really thinking and learning about abortion -- is going to be a positive thing. Angie Jackson's claims that her life is in danger can pull up discussions of "maternal indications". Her depictions of her apparently worthless sperm contributor can pull up discussions of the crappy relationships women are wiling to settle for, and how these relationships are a big part of what lands women on the abortion table. The question is whether or not we'll talk about those things, or whether it'll all get bogged down in the slogfest over whether Angie is a stalwart champion of women's rights, a selfish baby-killing trollop, or just a sad example of what passes for liberation to the modern woman.
1992: A little-noted abortion death
The only information I've been able to gather on Diane Adams comes from pro-life web sites. Human Life International mentions that abortionist Angel Acevado Montalvo was charged with manslaughter in two cases of maternal deaths from safe and legal abortion. HLI also notes that after his conviction, Montalvo went right back to business doing abortions.
Priests for Life posts a list of women who have died from legal abortions, including Diane Adams, whose date of death they give as February 28, 1992. They cite a March 5, 1992 article in the Virgin Islands Daily News. They cite one other death, that of Rosael Rodriguez, from that article.
Rosael Rodriguez and Diane Adams are most likely the two women referred to by HLI.
Priests for Life posts a list of women who have died from legal abortions, including Diane Adams, whose date of death they give as February 28, 1992. They cite a March 5, 1992 article in the Virgin Islands Daily News. They cite one other death, that of Rosael Rodriguez, from that article.
Rosael Rodriguez and Diane Adams are most likely the two women referred to by HLI.
1993: Planned Parenthood referral proves fatal
Andrea Corey was 31 years old when she was referred by a nearby Planned Parenthood to Southern Tier Women's Services in New York for a safe and legal abortion. Andrea was sent home after her abortion, but she had retained tissue that caused an infection. She died of this infection on February 28, 1993.
Planned Parenthood had also referred Elizabeth Tsuji for her fatal abortion, and referred Christi Stile to the abortionist who left her permanently incapacitated. I just wanted to stress, in the wake of the news that Karnamaya Mongar was referred to a lethal quack by an abortion clinic, that just because you're referred by professional prochoicers doesn't mean they've vetted the facility. (As much as they insist that they're opposed to quack abortionists and filthy mills, that doesn't seem to stop them from referring to them.)
For more abortion deaths, visit the Cemetery of Choice:
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Planned Parenthood had also referred Elizabeth Tsuji for her fatal abortion, and referred Christi Stile to the abortionist who left her permanently incapacitated. I just wanted to stress, in the wake of the news that Karnamaya Mongar was referred to a lethal quack by an abortion clinic, that just because you're referred by professional prochoicers doesn't mean they've vetted the facility. (As much as they insist that they're opposed to quack abortionists and filthy mills, that doesn't seem to stop them from referring to them.)
For more abortion deaths, visit the Cemetery of Choice:
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2002: Mom bleeds to death from Planned Parenthood abortion
Diana Lopez, age 25, was 19 weeks pregnant when she went to a Planned Parenthood for a safe and legal abortion on February 28, 2002. She was 19 weeks pregnant.Before the day was over, Diana had bled to death. She left two sons, 4-year-old Frankie and 2-year-old Fabian, motherless. The taxpayers of California paid for the fatal abortion, courtesy of Medi-Cal.
After the abortion, Diana had been rushed by ambulance to County Women‘s Hospital, where a hysterectomy was performed and Diana was given five units of whole blood in a futile attempt to save her life.
Diana‘s autopsy noted that Diana had hemorrhaged from a perforation of her cervix.
Diana‘s husband, David, filed suit, alleging that the abortionist‘s haste caused severe lacerations that killed his wife. The suit says that Diana‘s abortion was rushed through in ony six minutes, although Planned Parenthood‘s own web site says such a procedure should take 10 to 20 minutes.
The lawsuit also blames Planned Parenthood for proceeding with an abortion even though her hemoglobin levels were abnormally low prior to the procedure.
The family‘s attorney also noted that in 2000, the same Planned Parenthood rushed another woman though a similar 6-minute abortion, lacerating the patient‘s cervix, rupturing her uterus, perforating her sigmoid colon and causing the loss of 2 liters of blood. Planned Parenthood also delayed three hours before transferring the patient to a hospital. Fortunately, this patient survived her ordeal.
A review of Los Angeles County civil cases indicates that this patient was probably Kimberly Thomas, who sued on April 19, 2002, after her abortion by Joseph Marmet. Kimberly‘s suit was one of roughly 50 filed against the Los Angeles Planned Parenthood from 1983 to 2002. The medical board took no action against Marmet.
The medical board took no action against Diana‘s abortionist, Dr. Mark Maltzer, either. However, the California Department of Health Services investigated the facility and cited Planned Parenthood for:
The fact that the Planned Parenthood has made "corrections" to satisfy the state does not satisfy Diana‘s family. "It was wrong. It was wrong," said Judy Lopez, Diana‘s older sister. "She was healthy. She was fine."
Saturday, February 27, 2010
"Demystifying abortion"
We've been trying to do that for decades now.
This is what abortion supporters consider a "right" to be embraced and celebrated.
And they believe that this is as good as -- if not better than -- a live baby.
Here are some videos to help with the demystification process.
Wanna know what needs to be demystified? Why the idea that these babies were so small, defenseless, and vulnerable, so desperately in need of their mothers' love, is what makes it okay to do that to them. Why it is that if they were bigger, able to run, able to fight back, able to at least try to defend themselves, it would be easier to recognize killing them as wrong.
Ought not vulnerability to elicit protectiveness, rather than indifference or violence?
This is what abortion supporters consider a "right" to be embraced and celebrated.
And they believe that this is as good as -- if not better than -- a live baby.
Here are some videos to help with the demystification process.
Wanna know what needs to be demystified? Why the idea that these babies were so small, defenseless, and vulnerable, so desperately in need of their mothers' love, is what makes it okay to do that to them. Why it is that if they were bigger, able to run, able to fight back, able to at least try to defend themselves, it would be easier to recognize killing them as wrong.
Ought not vulnerability to elicit protectiveness, rather than indifference or violence?
More searches: Abortion in the 60's and more
This morning's searches
1926: Fatal Chicago abortion
On February 27, 1926, 36-year-old Anna Welger died in her home from complications of an abortion performed that day.
Theresa Struhala was indicted for felony murder in Anna's death. Struhala's profession is not listed.
John Welger, whose relationship to Anna was not disclosed, was booked as an accomplice, but was later released.
Keep in mind that things that things we take for granted, like antibiotics and blood banks, were still in the future. For more about abortion in this era, see Abortion in the 1920s.
For more on pre-legalization abortion, see The Bad Old Days of Abortion
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Theresa Struhala was indicted for felony murder in Anna's death. Struhala's profession is not listed.
John Welger, whose relationship to Anna was not disclosed, was booked as an accomplice, but was later released.
Keep in mind that things that things we take for granted, like antibiotics and blood banks, were still in the future. For more about abortion in this era, see Abortion in the 1920s.
For more on pre-legalization abortion, see The Bad Old Days of Abortion
To email this post to a friend, use the icon below.
Pre-Roe, perfectly legal, hardly safe
"Roseanne" was in the second trimester of pregnancy when she chose safe and legal abortion in 1971. She was 37 years old, had had four children.
She was infused with saline for the abortion. Two days later, she began vomiting and having siezures. She aspirated some of the vomit and developed pneumonia.
The pneumonia took its toll. Roseanne died on February 27 from the pneumonia and anoxic brain damage.
See Legal Abortion Deaths Before Roe for similar cases.
For more abortion deaths, visit the Cemetery of Choice:
To email this post to a friend, use the icon below.
She was infused with saline for the abortion. Two days later, she began vomiting and having siezures. She aspirated some of the vomit and developed pneumonia.
The pneumonia took its toll. Roseanne died on February 27 from the pneumonia and anoxic brain damage.
See Legal Abortion Deaths Before Roe for similar cases.
For more abortion deaths, visit the Cemetery of Choice:
To email this post to a friend, use the icon below.
Friday, February 26, 2010
Today's searches: Kermit Gosnell and more
A reasonable request -- At least I think so.
I've said before -- as in this post from 2005 -- what it is I'm trying to accomplish with prochoicers who visit this blog. And it's not to convince them to convert:
It's recently been revealed that it was an abortion clinic in Maryland that referred Karnamaya Mongar to Kermit Gosnell's filthy Philadelphia abortion mill.
As cynical as I am about abortionists, I know that they're not all quacks. Curtis Boyd and Warren Hern, for example, seem to really care about their patients and to want to see them safely through their abortions. Surely there are more than just two abortionists in the United States who keep their facilities clean and sanitary, and staff them with adequately trained staff, and have all the medications and equipment they need. Could this Maryland clinic not find one within driving distance for Karnamaya?
It really doesn't seem like I'm asking something out of step with prochoice values to ask them to do a docket search, check the medical board for disciplinary actions, and check with the health department before referring women to an abortion practitioner. If the main priority really is women's safety and well-being, the people at that clinic shouldn't need prolifers smacking them upside the head to motivate them to do this.
I'm not speaking to the 16% who are "consistently pro-choice." They're pretty much settled in their opinions and not likely to change unless something jolts them so much that it makes them totally re-examine everything they've taken to be true. I don't think that there's anything here new enough to do that.
The "personally-opposed pro-choice" is another group I'm not likely to reach. My personal experience with them is that they're as firmly set as the consistently pro-choice, but for different reasons. They're not enamored of abortion per se; they're devoted to what they perceive as The Sisterhood, and they'll stand by it through thick and thin. And to them, The Sisterhood is the consistently pro-choice. Now, if their idea of The Sisterhood changes to women in general, then they might be motivated to address abortion industry abuses, or to at least check out the safety record of a particular facility before they take a friend there. So while I can hope that they'll at least become uneasy about, say, just trusting a NAF clinic without further investigation, I doubt that they'll find anything of interest here.
The "reticent prochoice" are my main target audience. These are people who are uneasy with the idea of abortion. They see it as the lesser of two evils, but not as anything that really can be held up as a positive good. These are the ones most likely to come away uneasy about trusting abortion facilities and prochoice groups to really be looking after women's well-being. My goal is to make skeptics out of them, and, if possible, give them the wherewithal to start holding prochoice organizations and abortion facilities accountable. I see them as the potential backbone for a third movement -- a truly prochoice movement, that doesn't want any woman to get on the abortion table unless she's 100% sure that this is what is best for her. A truly pro woman movement that does not tolerate seedy Main Street Maimers or consumer fraud. They're only seven percent of the general population, but they're fully a quarter of the prochoice movement and I think that if they stood their ground they'd drive out those for whom abortion has become an end in itself.
It's recently been revealed that it was an abortion clinic in Maryland that referred Karnamaya Mongar to Kermit Gosnell's filthy Philadelphia abortion mill.
As cynical as I am about abortionists, I know that they're not all quacks. Curtis Boyd and Warren Hern, for example, seem to really care about their patients and to want to see them safely through their abortions. Surely there are more than just two abortionists in the United States who keep their facilities clean and sanitary, and staff them with adequately trained staff, and have all the medications and equipment they need. Could this Maryland clinic not find one within driving distance for Karnamaya?
It really doesn't seem like I'm asking something out of step with prochoice values to ask them to do a docket search, check the medical board for disciplinary actions, and check with the health department before referring women to an abortion practitioner. If the main priority really is women's safety and well-being, the people at that clinic shouldn't need prolifers smacking them upside the head to motivate them to do this.
1924: Fatal abortion, midwife's denial
On February 26, 1924, Wanda Szidzewicz died in a Massachusetts hospital from septicemia due to an abortion performed on her on February 6 by Ida Cantor. Wanda had developed septicemia and was hospitalized on February 11..
Testimony at Ida's trial indicated that Ida's profession was midwife, since she delivered at least one baby that Dr. Sawyer and Ida's own husband testified to.
The jury found that Ida used improperly sterilized or non-sterile instruments in the abortion. A key part of the prosecution's case was a deathbed statement by the injured woman.
The medical examiner found "no evidence of violence outside or in", but did find evidence that instruments had been used to perform an abortion. He also testified that Wanda had said that Ida Cantor had performed the abortion in question. A Dr. Sawyer testified that he'd told Wanda that she was dying, testimony intended to add credibility to her deathbed statement.
A doctor from the hospital, however, testified that the death and expulsion of the fetus, along with Wanda's injuries, might have been brought about with "an accidental abortion", such as that caused by lifting a heavy box. Hospital records stated that Wanda had lifted a heavy box at some point, "four days before".
Ida's attorney's launched a scattershot and ineffectual defense. Part of it was putting forth Ida's assertion that she she'd had to ask the police why she was being arrested -- she claimed that this proved that she'd not known anything abut Wanda's abortion or death. Her lawyer asked an expert witness if the "constant jarring operation of a sewing machine" could ahve caused Wanda to miscarry, but never introduced any evidence that Wanda had operated a sewing machine. The defense had tried to place Ida's grandchild's birth certificate into evidence as proof that she'd been at the child's birthday party in New York at the time of the abortion and thus couldn't have performed it. Ida's husband's testimony did nothing to aid her; in fact, it contradicted her.
After her conviction, Ida appealed, but her conviction was upheld. Wanda's widower, Waclaw , also successfully sued Ida.
When reading of abortions in this era, keep in mind that things that things we take for granted, like antibiotics and blood banks, were still in the future. For more about abortion in this era, see Abortion in the 1920s.
For more on pre-legalization abortion, see The Bad Old Days of Abortion
To email this post to a friend, use the icon below.
Testimony at Ida's trial indicated that Ida's profession was midwife, since she delivered at least one baby that Dr. Sawyer and Ida's own husband testified to.
The jury found that Ida used improperly sterilized or non-sterile instruments in the abortion. A key part of the prosecution's case was a deathbed statement by the injured woman.
The medical examiner found "no evidence of violence outside or in", but did find evidence that instruments had been used to perform an abortion. He also testified that Wanda had said that Ida Cantor had performed the abortion in question. A Dr. Sawyer testified that he'd told Wanda that she was dying, testimony intended to add credibility to her deathbed statement.
A doctor from the hospital, however, testified that the death and expulsion of the fetus, along with Wanda's injuries, might have been brought about with "an accidental abortion", such as that caused by lifting a heavy box. Hospital records stated that Wanda had lifted a heavy box at some point, "four days before".
Ida's attorney's launched a scattershot and ineffectual defense. Part of it was putting forth Ida's assertion that she she'd had to ask the police why she was being arrested -- she claimed that this proved that she'd not known anything abut Wanda's abortion or death. Her lawyer asked an expert witness if the "constant jarring operation of a sewing machine" could ahve caused Wanda to miscarry, but never introduced any evidence that Wanda had operated a sewing machine. The defense had tried to place Ida's grandchild's birth certificate into evidence as proof that she'd been at the child's birthday party in New York at the time of the abortion and thus couldn't have performed it. Ida's husband's testimony did nothing to aid her; in fact, it contradicted her.
After her conviction, Ida appealed, but her conviction was upheld. Wanda's widower, Waclaw , also successfully sued Ida.
When reading of abortions in this era, keep in mind that things that things we take for granted, like antibiotics and blood banks, were still in the future. For more about abortion in this era, see Abortion in the 1920s.
For more on pre-legalization abortion, see The Bad Old Days of Abortion
To email this post to a friend, use the icon below.
Thursday, February 25, 2010
Today's searches: Lysol douche ads, and more
Kermit Gosnell: The Super Coil Connection
W. Phila abortion doctor had problems 38 years ago
I guess it should be no surprise that prochoicers sent a woman to Kermit Gosnell's filthy Philadelphia abortion mill. Abortion rights activists had sent vulnerable women to Gosnell before -- when he provided expertise and facilities for Harvey Karman to do his notorious 1972 Mother's Day abortion fiasco
The "Jane" criminal abortion ring in Chicago had been raided, and their lay abortionists arrested. So the remaining Jane members loaded up a bus full of poor minority women and hauled them to Philadelphia so that Karman could use them for medical experiments. Karman packed these women -- like Gosnell's recent victim, Karnamaya Mongar, well into the second trimester of pregnancy -- with plastic "super coils". Karman figured that these "super coils" would cause a quick, easy abortion.
It turned out that what the "super coils" produced were super complications. Health officials investigated after one woman was hospitalized in Philly and others hospitalized on their return to Chicago.
The more things change, the more they stay the same. And the procohice motto seems to be "He does abortions. That's good enough."
HT: Jivin' J
For more on Gosnell's history, read A child herself, she awoke after abortion to a sight of horror
Medical complications from induced abortion by the super coil method (PDF of full article), aka Kermit Gosnell and Harvey Karman's idea of ethical medical research. Or as a layman would put it, "Using women as lab rats."
I guess it should be no surprise that prochoicers sent a woman to Kermit Gosnell's filthy Philadelphia abortion mill. Abortion rights activists had sent vulnerable women to Gosnell before -- when he provided expertise and facilities for Harvey Karman to do his notorious 1972 Mother's Day abortion fiasco
The "Jane" criminal abortion ring in Chicago had been raided, and their lay abortionists arrested. So the remaining Jane members loaded up a bus full of poor minority women and hauled them to Philadelphia so that Karman could use them for medical experiments. Karman packed these women -- like Gosnell's recent victim, Karnamaya Mongar, well into the second trimester of pregnancy -- with plastic "super coils". Karman figured that these "super coils" would cause a quick, easy abortion.
It turned out that what the "super coils" produced were super complications. Health officials investigated after one woman was hospitalized in Philly and others hospitalized on their return to Chicago.
The more things change, the more they stay the same. And the procohice motto seems to be "He does abortions. That's good enough."
HT: Jivin' J
For more on Gosnell's history, read A child herself, she awoke after abortion to a sight of horror
Medical complications from induced abortion by the super coil method (PDF of full article), aka Kermit Gosnell and Harvey Karman's idea of ethical medical research. Or as a layman would put it, "Using women as lab rats."
1879: The body in the trunk
In the late winter of 1879, Jennie P. Clark's body was found stuffed into a trunk in a river at Lynn, New York. An investigation pieced together how she ended up there.
On February 12, Jennie left her home in the Highlands. She was seen shortly thereafter going into the Boston home of Dr. C. C. Goodrich, which she leased from Dr. James L. Simons, who passed himself off as a dentist but was actually the owner of several abortion mills. The abortion was evidently performed at Goodrich's practice. Jennie left on February 15 and went to the home where the an unnamed mother and daughter cared for her. Jennie delivered her dead fetus and seemed to be on the mend. She took a sudden turn for the worse and died on February 25. Dr. Kimball, who lived in the same house as Jennie, as well as Dr. Goodrich were informed when Jennie's health started deteriorating, but they didn't arrive until after her death on February 25.
They packed up the body into the trunk, with Goodrich for some reason removing the dead girl's nose with dental forceps. The next evening, Kimball brought the trunk to Lynn and looked for someplace to dump it. Most of the streams were frozen. He finally tossed it off the Foxbill Bridge into the Saugus River.
Dr. C. C. Goodrich was arrested as the abortionist. Dr. Kimball was arrested as an accessory. Mr. Altin M. Adams, at whose house Jennie worked, was arrested as secondary accessory, as were the mother and daughter living in the house where Jennie had died.
I have no information on overall maternal mortality, or abortion mortality, in the 19th century. I imagine it can't be too much different from maternal and abortion mortality at the very beginning of the 20th Century.
Note, please, that with issues such as doctors not using proper aseptic techniques, lack of access to blood transfusions and antibiotics, and overall poor health to begin with, there was likely little difference between the performance of a legal abortion and illegal practice, and the aftercare for either type of abortion was probably equally unlikely to do the woman much, if any, good.
For more on this era, see Abortion Deaths in the 19th Century.
Lest you think dumping the body disappeared with legalization, read the story of Angela Sanchez. Her family found her abortionist and an accomplice trying to stuff Angela's stiffening body into the trunk of her own car, which they'd planed to ditch. And this was in 1993 -- more than a hundred years after an abortionist and her accomplices stuffed Jennie Clark's body into a trunk.
You can't change what abortion is or the type of people it's going to attract to the business.
For more abortion deaths, visit the Cemetery of Choice:
To email this post to a friend, use the icon below.
On February 12, Jennie left her home in the Highlands. She was seen shortly thereafter going into the Boston home of Dr. C. C. Goodrich, which she leased from Dr. James L. Simons, who passed himself off as a dentist but was actually the owner of several abortion mills. The abortion was evidently performed at Goodrich's practice. Jennie left on February 15 and went to the home where the an unnamed mother and daughter cared for her. Jennie delivered her dead fetus and seemed to be on the mend. She took a sudden turn for the worse and died on February 25. Dr. Kimball, who lived in the same house as Jennie, as well as Dr. Goodrich were informed when Jennie's health started deteriorating, but they didn't arrive until after her death on February 25.
They packed up the body into the trunk, with Goodrich for some reason removing the dead girl's nose with dental forceps. The next evening, Kimball brought the trunk to Lynn and looked for someplace to dump it. Most of the streams were frozen. He finally tossed it off the Foxbill Bridge into the Saugus River.
Dr. C. C. Goodrich was arrested as the abortionist. Dr. Kimball was arrested as an accessory. Mr. Altin M. Adams, at whose house Jennie worked, was arrested as secondary accessory, as were the mother and daughter living in the house where Jennie had died.
I have no information on overall maternal mortality, or abortion mortality, in the 19th century. I imagine it can't be too much different from maternal and abortion mortality at the very beginning of the 20th Century.
Note, please, that with issues such as doctors not using proper aseptic techniques, lack of access to blood transfusions and antibiotics, and overall poor health to begin with, there was likely little difference between the performance of a legal abortion and illegal practice, and the aftercare for either type of abortion was probably equally unlikely to do the woman much, if any, good.
For more on this era, see Abortion Deaths in the 19th Century.
Lest you think dumping the body disappeared with legalization, read the story of Angela Sanchez. Her family found her abortionist and an accomplice trying to stuff Angela's stiffening body into the trunk of her own car, which they'd planed to ditch. And this was in 1993 -- more than a hundred years after an abortionist and her accomplices stuffed Jennie Clark's body into a trunk.
You can't change what abortion is or the type of people it's going to attract to the business.
For more abortion deaths, visit the Cemetery of Choice:
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1916: Conflicting stories in abortion death
Lillian Hobbs was convicted of murder in the 1916 abortion death of 21-year-old Alda Christopherson. The testimony of John K. McDonald, who was granted immunity in exchange, was crucial in the case. He was the father of Alda's aborted baby.
Depending on whose testimony you believe, the whole sordid story began either on February 21, or six weeks earlier.
All the testimony agreed that Alda's lover, John McDonald, had visited Hobbs' office on Monday, February 21, asking if Alda had been there. Testimony agreed that Hobbs denied having seen Alda, even though the girl had indeed been there. Testimony agreed that McDonald had made arrangements for an abortion for Alda, after first inquiring if the procedure would be safe. He had been planning to marry the girl, and although the pregnancy was "an inconvenience" he wasn't willing to pursue an abortion if it would endanger Alda. All the testimony agreed that Hobbs had assured McDonald that as long as Alda followed instructions, an abortion would be perfectly safe.
But Hobbs testified in her trial that when Alda had arrived earlier, she'd admitted to having "taken dope" for six weeks to try to cause an abortion. She also claimed that Alda had admitted to having used a buttonhook on herself the previous Sunday. (It is unclear if she meant the day before, February 20, or the Sunday before that.)
Hobbs, along with her son, William Heyward, and her nurse, Ada Kanter, testified that upon her arrival on the 21st, Alda was very ill, walking slowly and as if in great pain. They all also testified that Alda had spoken of taking dope and trying to self-abort with a buttonhook, and that Hobbs had advised Alda to go to a hospital.
Hobbs also testified that she'd instructed Alda to go home, take some quinine and a hot bath, and gave her permission to return the next day.
A five-and-dime clerk, Lillian Thompson, testified that Alda had come to the store at about 10 a.m. on the 21st to buy sanitary napkins. Thompson testified that when she'd asked Alda what her trouble was -- because Alda seemed to be very ill and in great pain -- Alda ha pointed to a buttonhook on the counter and said she'd used a buttonhook and a crochet hook on herself and was going to see a doctor about it. However, Thompson's employer testified that the clerk's "reputation for truth and veracity was bad."
Whatever Alda's condition on the 21st -- and whatever Hobbs' reason for concealing from McDonald that his lover was supposedly deathly ill and in need of hospitalization when he'd arrived on Tuesday, the 22nd, to arrange an abortion -- McDonald met Alda at about 1:30 that afternoon and brought her to Hobbs' office.
McDonald testified that Alda had been in good health when he'd brought her for the abortion, and that though both he and Alda had been worried, Hobbs had reassured the couple that the girl would be fine as long as she followed instructions.
Here, again, the testimony all agrees. The couple arrived shortly before 2 p.m., entering through the first floor reception area. Alda was sent by the front way down to the basement, while Hobbs went down the back way.
Hobbs testified that during the time she'd been in the basement with Alda, she'd merely examined her to determine how much damage the girl had done with the buttonhook. She said she'd found some oozing blood and signs of great inflammation. She said that she swabbed Alda with antiseptic on a bit of gauze, using small dressing forceps.
Hobbs' daughter-in-law and husband, George, both testified that Alda seemed very sick and miserable. Mr. Hobbs said that Alda was moaning and crying. The daughter-in-law said that Alda was pale and walking slowly, as if in great pain, and asked Hobbs to see how much damage the buttonhook had done.
The daughter-in-law also testified that Hobbs called her in to the exam room. Alda was hysterical, weeping and crying aloud, "Oh, my! If I hadn't used the buttonhook I would not have to be here!"
All testimony agreed that Hobbs had returned within about 15 minutes to the reception area to speak with McDonald, and that the result of the consultation was McDonald giving her $50.
McDonald said that Hobbs had come to get her fee for the abortion. Hobbs said she'd collected money to admit Alda to the hospital. She said she phoned American Theatrical Hospital and arranged to admit Alda.
Nobody testified about whether or not American Theatrical Hospital ever got a call from Hobbs to admit a patient. What everybody did testify to is that McDonald and Alda left Hobbs' office, with Hobbs insisting that Alda was wretchedly ill, and McDonald testifying that she seemed fine.
McDonald sent Alda home by streetcar, to the home of Mrs. G.E. Holmes, where Alda was the housekeeper. Later that evening he went to pick her up for a date. He testified that she seemed well. Her sister, Kitty, noted that Alda seemed to be in good health when McDonald picked her up, as well as later when Kitty joined the couple at the picture show. Their other sister, Nellie, also testified that Alda seemed to be in good health late on the 22nd.
But at about 2:30 on the morning of Wednesday, the 23rd, Alda took ill, with vomiting, cramps, and chills. She improved somewhat over the course of the day, but kept to her bed. Hobbs claimed that McDonald came to her practice at about 2 p.m that day to tell her that Alda was well, prompting her to cancel plans to admit the girl to the hospital.
On Thursday, February 24, somebody summoned Dr. Barnsbach at around 9 a.m. He found Alda collapsed, and, based on what little information he'd been given, he diagnosed ptomaine poisoning and had her removed to Lakeside Hospital. As she was being taken from the house, Hobbs arrived and inquired after the girl. When told that Alda was being taken to the hospital for ptomaine poisoning, she did not mention anything to the attending physician about any abortion, or abortion infection -- a grave omission, regardless of whether she or Alda had performed the abortion in question, and showing little regard for her patient's well-being.
It was Alda's sister Kitty who told told physicians at the hospital the true cause of Alda's sickness. She had learned the truth when she'd called McDonald to tell him of Alda's collapse. Dr. A. R. Johnson performed surgery on Alda. He found her abdomen full of blood and blood clots, an enlarged uterus consistent with 2 to 2 1/2 months of pregnancy, and placental tissue protruding through a large hole in the top of her uterus. He cleaned up the mess in Alda's abdominal cavity and sutured the hole in her uterus. Johnson later testified that a buttonhook can not have done that much damage. The hole, Johnson insisted, must have been made by a much larger instrument, capable of being spread open.
Despite Dr. Johnson's efforts, and no thanks to Dr. Hobbs, Alda died on the 25th. During the post-mortem, her uterus was removed and preserved, to be presented as evidence in the trial. Three other doctors, called as expert witnesses, had examined the uterus after Alda's death and said that a buttonhook could possibly have caused the damage, and estimated that the way the edges of the hole were soughing, the injury had to have occurred prior to Alda's visit to Hobbs' practice to have caused such extensive infection.
The jury evidently decided that Hobbs' story didn't hold together well, for they voted to convict her of murder in Alda's death. Hobbs was sentenced to 14 years in prison.
Between the death and the trial, Hobbs had been indicted for the abortion death of Ellen Mastson. Ellen died in early November of 1917.
Hobbs appealed on multiple grounds, including the fairly feeble one that only on court documents, she was referred to once as "Lillian Hobbs otherwise Lillian Seymour", but elsewhere on court documents only as "the said Lillian Hobbs". She also protested that it was inappropriate to bring up the death of Ellen Matson as evidence of her practice as a criminal abortionist, since Ellen died nearly two years after Alda's death and thus her abortion wasn't evidence of prior criminal behavior. She also protested that it would have been sufficient to show evidence that she had performed an abortion Ellen, that introducing the reality of Ellen's death was prejudicial.
The appeal succeeded. The conviction was overturned and a new trial ordered. However, Hobbs' conviction and sentencing for Ellen Matson's death rendered this rather a moot point.
Hobbs was also implicated, but never tried, for the 1917 abortion death of Ruth Lemaire.
These fatal abortions were typical of pre-legalization abortions in that they were performed by a physician.
Note, please, that with issues such as doctors not using proper aseptic techniques, lack of access to blood transfusions and antibiotics, and overall poor health to begin with, there was likely little difference between the performance of a legal abortion and illegal practice, and the aftercare for either type of abortion was probably equally unlikely to do the woman much, if any, good. For more information about early 20th Century abortion mortality, see Abortion Deaths 1910-1919.
And lest you think the sorts of things that happened in Alda's death stopped happening with legalization, consider:
When Evelyn Dudley collapsed in the driveway of her home, her safe and legal abortionist tried to claim he'd only been treating her for injuries she'd sustained elsewhere.
When Alicia Hannah was caught trying to dump the body of Angela Sanchez in 1993, she claimed Angela had collapsed at her clinic after having an illegal abortion elsewhere.
Abortionist Andre Neharoayoff failed to hospitalize "Ellen" Roe, and sent her home with a fetal leg protruding from her uterus, in 1983.
Abortionist Suresh Gandotra delayed hospitalizing Magdalena Rodriguez in 1994, sending her to the hospital with the mangled fetus protruding from a tear in her uterus.
Quackery, it seems, is truly timeless.
For more abortion deaths, visit the Cemetery of Choice:
To email this post to a friend, use the icon below.
Depending on whose testimony you believe, the whole sordid story began either on February 21, or six weeks earlier.
All the testimony agreed that Alda's lover, John McDonald, had visited Hobbs' office on Monday, February 21, asking if Alda had been there. Testimony agreed that Hobbs denied having seen Alda, even though the girl had indeed been there. Testimony agreed that McDonald had made arrangements for an abortion for Alda, after first inquiring if the procedure would be safe. He had been planning to marry the girl, and although the pregnancy was "an inconvenience" he wasn't willing to pursue an abortion if it would endanger Alda. All the testimony agreed that Hobbs had assured McDonald that as long as Alda followed instructions, an abortion would be perfectly safe.
But Hobbs testified in her trial that when Alda had arrived earlier, she'd admitted to having "taken dope" for six weeks to try to cause an abortion. She also claimed that Alda had admitted to having used a buttonhook on herself the previous Sunday. (It is unclear if she meant the day before, February 20, or the Sunday before that.)
Hobbs, along with her son, William Heyward, and her nurse, Ada Kanter, testified that upon her arrival on the 21st, Alda was very ill, walking slowly and as if in great pain. They all also testified that Alda had spoken of taking dope and trying to self-abort with a buttonhook, and that Hobbs had advised Alda to go to a hospital.
Hobbs also testified that she'd instructed Alda to go home, take some quinine and a hot bath, and gave her permission to return the next day.
A five-and-dime clerk, Lillian Thompson, testified that Alda had come to the store at about 10 a.m. on the 21st to buy sanitary napkins. Thompson testified that when she'd asked Alda what her trouble was -- because Alda seemed to be very ill and in great pain -- Alda ha pointed to a buttonhook on the counter and said she'd used a buttonhook and a crochet hook on herself and was going to see a doctor about it. However, Thompson's employer testified that the clerk's "reputation for truth and veracity was bad."
Whatever Alda's condition on the 21st -- and whatever Hobbs' reason for concealing from McDonald that his lover was supposedly deathly ill and in need of hospitalization when he'd arrived on Tuesday, the 22nd, to arrange an abortion -- McDonald met Alda at about 1:30 that afternoon and brought her to Hobbs' office.
McDonald testified that Alda had been in good health when he'd brought her for the abortion, and that though both he and Alda had been worried, Hobbs had reassured the couple that the girl would be fine as long as she followed instructions.
Here, again, the testimony all agrees. The couple arrived shortly before 2 p.m., entering through the first floor reception area. Alda was sent by the front way down to the basement, while Hobbs went down the back way.
Hobbs testified that during the time she'd been in the basement with Alda, she'd merely examined her to determine how much damage the girl had done with the buttonhook. She said she'd found some oozing blood and signs of great inflammation. She said that she swabbed Alda with antiseptic on a bit of gauze, using small dressing forceps.
Hobbs' daughter-in-law and husband, George, both testified that Alda seemed very sick and miserable. Mr. Hobbs said that Alda was moaning and crying. The daughter-in-law said that Alda was pale and walking slowly, as if in great pain, and asked Hobbs to see how much damage the buttonhook had done.
The daughter-in-law also testified that Hobbs called her in to the exam room. Alda was hysterical, weeping and crying aloud, "Oh, my! If I hadn't used the buttonhook I would not have to be here!"
All testimony agreed that Hobbs had returned within about 15 minutes to the reception area to speak with McDonald, and that the result of the consultation was McDonald giving her $50.
McDonald said that Hobbs had come to get her fee for the abortion. Hobbs said she'd collected money to admit Alda to the hospital. She said she phoned American Theatrical Hospital and arranged to admit Alda.
Nobody testified about whether or not American Theatrical Hospital ever got a call from Hobbs to admit a patient. What everybody did testify to is that McDonald and Alda left Hobbs' office, with Hobbs insisting that Alda was wretchedly ill, and McDonald testifying that she seemed fine.
McDonald sent Alda home by streetcar, to the home of Mrs. G.E. Holmes, where Alda was the housekeeper. Later that evening he went to pick her up for a date. He testified that she seemed well. Her sister, Kitty, noted that Alda seemed to be in good health when McDonald picked her up, as well as later when Kitty joined the couple at the picture show. Their other sister, Nellie, also testified that Alda seemed to be in good health late on the 22nd.
But at about 2:30 on the morning of Wednesday, the 23rd, Alda took ill, with vomiting, cramps, and chills. She improved somewhat over the course of the day, but kept to her bed. Hobbs claimed that McDonald came to her practice at about 2 p.m that day to tell her that Alda was well, prompting her to cancel plans to admit the girl to the hospital.
On Thursday, February 24, somebody summoned Dr. Barnsbach at around 9 a.m. He found Alda collapsed, and, based on what little information he'd been given, he diagnosed ptomaine poisoning and had her removed to Lakeside Hospital. As she was being taken from the house, Hobbs arrived and inquired after the girl. When told that Alda was being taken to the hospital for ptomaine poisoning, she did not mention anything to the attending physician about any abortion, or abortion infection -- a grave omission, regardless of whether she or Alda had performed the abortion in question, and showing little regard for her patient's well-being.
It was Alda's sister Kitty who told told physicians at the hospital the true cause of Alda's sickness. She had learned the truth when she'd called McDonald to tell him of Alda's collapse. Dr. A. R. Johnson performed surgery on Alda. He found her abdomen full of blood and blood clots, an enlarged uterus consistent with 2 to 2 1/2 months of pregnancy, and placental tissue protruding through a large hole in the top of her uterus. He cleaned up the mess in Alda's abdominal cavity and sutured the hole in her uterus. Johnson later testified that a buttonhook can not have done that much damage. The hole, Johnson insisted, must have been made by a much larger instrument, capable of being spread open.
Despite Dr. Johnson's efforts, and no thanks to Dr. Hobbs, Alda died on the 25th. During the post-mortem, her uterus was removed and preserved, to be presented as evidence in the trial. Three other doctors, called as expert witnesses, had examined the uterus after Alda's death and said that a buttonhook could possibly have caused the damage, and estimated that the way the edges of the hole were soughing, the injury had to have occurred prior to Alda's visit to Hobbs' practice to have caused such extensive infection.
The jury evidently decided that Hobbs' story didn't hold together well, for they voted to convict her of murder in Alda's death. Hobbs was sentenced to 14 years in prison.
Between the death and the trial, Hobbs had been indicted for the abortion death of Ellen Mastson. Ellen died in early November of 1917.
Hobbs appealed on multiple grounds, including the fairly feeble one that only on court documents, she was referred to once as "Lillian Hobbs otherwise Lillian Seymour", but elsewhere on court documents only as "the said Lillian Hobbs". She also protested that it was inappropriate to bring up the death of Ellen Matson as evidence of her practice as a criminal abortionist, since Ellen died nearly two years after Alda's death and thus her abortion wasn't evidence of prior criminal behavior. She also protested that it would have been sufficient to show evidence that she had performed an abortion Ellen, that introducing the reality of Ellen's death was prejudicial.
The appeal succeeded. The conviction was overturned and a new trial ordered. However, Hobbs' conviction and sentencing for Ellen Matson's death rendered this rather a moot point.
Hobbs was also implicated, but never tried, for the 1917 abortion death of Ruth Lemaire.
These fatal abortions were typical of pre-legalization abortions in that they were performed by a physician.
Note, please, that with issues such as doctors not using proper aseptic techniques, lack of access to blood transfusions and antibiotics, and overall poor health to begin with, there was likely little difference between the performance of a legal abortion and illegal practice, and the aftercare for either type of abortion was probably equally unlikely to do the woman much, if any, good. For more information about early 20th Century abortion mortality, see Abortion Deaths 1910-1919.
And lest you think the sorts of things that happened in Alda's death stopped happening with legalization, consider:
Quackery, it seems, is truly timeless.
For more abortion deaths, visit the Cemetery of Choice:
To email this post to a friend, use the icon below.
Wednesday, February 24, 2010
More information on last year's Philly abortion death
The woman I had dubbed "Amelia Roe" has been identified as 41-year-old Karnamaya Mongar. The following summary is taken from these medical board documents and A death after abortion at suspended medic's clinic:
It was November 20, 2009. Damber had taken his sister to Kermit Gosnell's filthy Philadelphia abortion mill. She had first gone to a facility in Virginia, but because they didn't do abortions after 12 weeks, they referred Karnamaya to an abortion clinic in Maryland. But Karnamaya was 18 or 19 weeks pregnant, further along than the Maryland clinic performed abortions, so they referred her to Gosnell's place.
The order suspending Gosnell's license said that an unlicensed employee, Lynda Gayle Williams, had given Karnamaya d 10 mg. Demerol and 12.5 mg promethazine, then had called Gosnell because the patient was still experiencing severe pain. Gosnell ordered more medications to be administered before his arrival -- 75 mg Demerol, 12.5 mg. promethazine, and 10 mg. diazepam -- and then ordered yet more after he arrived.
After Gosnell completed the abortion, Karnamaya developed a cardiac arrhythmia, and went into v-vib (abnormal heart rhythm that can't sustain life. An ambulance was summoned to take her to the hospital.
Karnamaya's brother, and her 21-year-old daughter, Yashoda Mongar, had accompanied her to the clinic. Karnayaya, her husband, and their three children had come to the United States five months ago from Bhutan. Ghalley, who speaks fluent English, was helping his sister and her family and interpreting for them.
Karnamaya's brother and daughter waited at the hospital through the night, to no avail. Karnamaya was pronounced dead.
Interestingly enough, RH Reality Check isn't blaming Kermit Gosnell for Karnamayar's death. Nor are they blaming the prochoicers at the Maryland clinic who referred her to a filthy abortion mill. They're blaming the prolifers who tried to protect her. Which makes as much sense as blaming MADD for a drunk driving death. If the abortion lobby is as opposed to substandard, dirty, dangerous abortion clinics, why did they refer this woman to one?
Damber Ghalley remembers seeing his unconscious sister on an ambulance stretcher, being taken out the back door of the West Philadelphia clinic where she had undergone an abortion.
....
"I asked the doctor, 'What happened?' " Ghalley recalled yesterday during a phone interview. "He said: 'Her heart stopped. The procedure went well, but her heart stopped.' "
It was November 20, 2009. Damber had taken his sister to Kermit Gosnell's filthy Philadelphia abortion mill. She had first gone to a facility in Virginia, but because they didn't do abortions after 12 weeks, they referred Karnamaya to an abortion clinic in Maryland. But Karnamaya was 18 or 19 weeks pregnant, further along than the Maryland clinic performed abortions, so they referred her to Gosnell's place.
The order suspending Gosnell's license said that an unlicensed employee, Lynda Gayle Williams, had given Karnamaya d 10 mg. Demerol and 12.5 mg promethazine, then had called Gosnell because the patient was still experiencing severe pain. Gosnell ordered more medications to be administered before his arrival -- 75 mg Demerol, 12.5 mg. promethazine, and 10 mg. diazepam -- and then ordered yet more after he arrived.
After Gosnell completed the abortion, Karnamaya developed a cardiac arrhythmia, and went into v-vib (abnormal heart rhythm that can't sustain life. An ambulance was summoned to take her to the hospital.
The suspension order describes "deplorable and unsanitary" conditions such as "blood on the floor and parts of aborted fetuses in jars." It also says an employee with no medical license routinely dispensed prescription drugs and performed medical exams while Gosnell was out of the clinic.
The clinic - a block away from Penn Presbyterian Medical Center - has big black letters proclaiming dental care, family practice, geriatrics, and physical therapy, but the order suspending Gosnell's license says it "specializes in abortions and pain management."
Karnamaya's brother, and her 21-year-old daughter, Yashoda Mongar, had accompanied her to the clinic. Karnayaya, her husband, and their three children had come to the United States five months ago from Bhutan. Ghalley, who speaks fluent English, was helping his sister and her family and interpreting for them.
Ghalley's first impression of the Philadelphia facility - a shabby, three-story brick structure with a two-story annex - was not good.
"So dirty. Dirty, bloody, a lot of people waiting," Ghalley recalled. "I was thinking at that time, maybe he [the doctor] was cheaper."
Later, as Ghalley watched his sister being put in the ambulance, a clinic employee and his niece began crying.
"I was crying, too," Ghalley said. "There was no other disease. My sister was fine before that."
Karnamaya's brother and daughter waited at the hospital through the night, to no avail. Karnamaya was pronounced dead.
"In this case, the worker had absolutely no medical training or license whatsoever," said Basil Merenda, state commissioner of professional and occupational affairs.
Interestingly enough, RH Reality Check isn't blaming Kermit Gosnell for Karnamayar's death. Nor are they blaming the prochoicers at the Maryland clinic who referred her to a filthy abortion mill. They're blaming the prolifers who tried to protect her. Which makes as much sense as blaming MADD for a drunk driving death. If the abortion lobby is as opposed to substandard, dirty, dangerous abortion clinics, why did they refer this woman to one?
More on abortionist Kermit Gosnell: Not his first dead patient
I wrote up yesterday about the investigation into Dr. Kermit Gosnell's nasty Philadelphia abortion clinic where a woman I refer to as "Amelia Roe" died last November 20.
It turns out that Amelia isn't the first woman Gosnell killed with a botched abortion.
Suspended Pa. abortion doctor had 2 patients die:
Semika died in March of 2000.
"Amelia" has also been identified as 41-year-old Karnamaya Mongar.
Here is another article and update:
A Matter of Life and Death:
Marie told reporters that she was 5 months pregnant when she went to Gosnell's clinic, which she found in the Yellow Pages. Since the waiting room was full of women, Marie "figured he must have been okay." After the abortion, which Marie paid $485 for, she noticed that women who had undergone their abortions were slumped over, bleeding, on the recliners. "I thought it was pretty nasty," she said. "I kind of wondered what he was up to there. He told me he did abortions up to the eighth month."
She sued in 2001, one of at least 46 lawsuits against Gosnell in Philadelphia.
Carolyn Hernandez sued after Gosnell reportedly punctured her uterus and colon during an abortion in 1986. She said, "I remember the pain was crazy, and I was screaming for him to stop,. At some point, he did stop. He took me off the table, put me on a couch in the waiting room and did another girl's abortion." He came back to her later to finish the abortion, but Carolyn suffered even more complications. "I lost so much blood, I almost died. My sweatshirt was soaked with blood." She had to be taken to a hospital for treatment.
The article also notes, "agents learned that some of Gosnell's unlicensed employees were examining patients and giving them medication, and often worked alone. Gosnell's clinic is open for business during the day, authorities said, yet he doesn't arrive until between 6 and 9 p.m."
Ah, but there's no reason to worry! The Washington Post reassures readers:
Yes, surely they can get "the highest quality care" at National Abortion Federation facilities, right? Like 18-year-old Barbaralee Davis, the first woman to die of abortion complications in member facility of the then newly-formed NAF. Or 15-year-old Sara Niebel, who died after an abortion at NAF member Midtown Hospital. Or 20-year-old Gloria Aponte, died after an abortion by NAF member Hanan Rotem -- who was letting his receptionist assist with anesthesia. Or 18-year-old Christi Stile, who was left in a vegetative state after an abortion at NAF member facility Mayfair Women's Clinic. Or 17--year-old Sophie McCoy, who died after an abortion by NAF member Abu Hayat, who is best known for having ripped the arm off a 32-week-fetus, Ana Rosa Rodriguez, who was then born live and maimed. Or like any of these victims of NAF abortionists. Oh, yeah. Call NAF and get a referral.
It turns out that Amelia isn't the first woman Gosnell killed with a botched abortion.
Suspended Pa. abortion doctor had 2 patients die:
Semika Shirelle Shaw called the office the day after her abortion because she was bleeding badly but wasn't told to get checked there or at a hospital, according to court documents. The lawsuit alleged that Shaw, a 22-year-old mother of two, died two days later of a perforated uterus and sepsis.
Semika died in March of 2000.
"Amelia" has also been identified as 41-year-old Karnamaya Mongar.
Here is another article and update:
SOMETHING had gone wrong with the abortion.
That's all Marie Smith could think about as she vomited incessantly and shivered with a high fever, just a week after Dr. Kermit B. Gosnell had performed an abortion on her at his West Philadelphia clinic in 1999.
Smith, 19 at the time, fell unconscious at her mother's home and was taken to Presbyterian Hospital, where doctors confirmed her suspicions.
Something had indeed gone wrong, but it was worse than she could have imagined.
"They showed me X-rays and said he [Gosnell] left an arm and a leg inside me," Smith said last night. "I almost died. I thought he knew what he was doing, but I guess I was wrong."
Marie told reporters that she was 5 months pregnant when she went to Gosnell's clinic, which she found in the Yellow Pages. Since the waiting room was full of women, Marie "figured he must have been okay." After the abortion, which Marie paid $485 for, she noticed that women who had undergone their abortions were slumped over, bleeding, on the recliners. "I thought it was pretty nasty," she said. "I kind of wondered what he was up to there. He told me he did abortions up to the eighth month."
She sued in 2001, one of at least 46 lawsuits against Gosnell in Philadelphia.
Carolyn Hernandez sued after Gosnell reportedly punctured her uterus and colon during an abortion in 1986. She said, "I remember the pain was crazy, and I was screaming for him to stop,. At some point, he did stop. He took me off the table, put me on a couch in the waiting room and did another girl's abortion." He came back to her later to finish the abortion, but Carolyn suffered even more complications. "I lost so much blood, I almost died. My sweatshirt was soaked with blood." She had to be taken to a hospital for treatment.
The article also notes, "agents learned that some of Gosnell's unlicensed employees were examining patients and giving them medication, and often worked alone. Gosnell's clinic is open for business during the day, authorities said, yet he doesn't arrive until between 6 and 9 p.m."
Ah, but there's no reason to worry! The Washington Post reassures readers:
The National Abortion Federation, an accrediting and standard-setting body for abortion providers, said the Women's Medical Society wasn't accredited.
"There are places that operate in low-income areas and prey on low-income women, students, immigrant populations who may not even know that abortion is legal in this country," said Vicki Saporta, the group's president. "Women need to know that there's no reason, no matter their socioeconomic status, for them not to have access to the highest quality care."
Yes, surely they can get "the highest quality care" at National Abortion Federation facilities, right? Like 18-year-old Barbaralee Davis, the first woman to die of abortion complications in member facility of the then newly-formed NAF. Or 15-year-old Sara Niebel, who died after an abortion at NAF member Midtown Hospital. Or 20-year-old Gloria Aponte, died after an abortion by NAF member Hanan Rotem -- who was letting his receptionist assist with anesthesia. Or 18-year-old Christi Stile, who was left in a vegetative state after an abortion at NAF member facility Mayfair Women's Clinic. Or 17--year-old Sophie McCoy, who died after an abortion by NAF member Abu Hayat, who is best known for having ripped the arm off a 32-week-fetus, Ana Rosa Rodriguez, who was then born live and maimed. Or like any of these victims of NAF abortionists. Oh, yeah. Call NAF and get a referral.
Today's searches: Abortion videos, and more
Anniversary: Top-notch facility leaves woman in fatal coma
On February 24, 1993, 23-year-old Venus Ortiz underwent an abortion of her approximately 15-week pregnancy, evidently performed by a Dr. Leiber, at National Abortion Federation member Eastern Women's Center.
A suit filed on Venus's behalf alleged that there was negligence in administering anesthesia to Venus, and failure to establish an airway. Brevital, fentanyl, and midazolam were administered in dosages and manners contrary to standards of practice, causing Venus to suffer a synergistic reaction.
Eastern's staff failed to promptly diagnose and attend to cardio-pulmonary arrest. Eastern's notes of 5:35 PM indicate "2:35 PM end of surgery ... we noticed patient's ashen color and the pulse oximeter tracing and digital readout were gone from the monitor." Emergency medical services were called. The reading of Venus' blood pressure at that time was 90/55; four minutes later it was recorded as being 146/62.
Venus was transported by ambulance to a hospital, accompanied by Dr. Cyrus, Dr. Goodman, and/or Dr. Jeffrey P. Moskowitz. However, the damage had already been done. Venus was left in permanent need of respirator, with profound brain damage. Venus remained in a coma/vegetative state. She was hospitalized a little over five months before being transferred to permanent nursing home care.
To further underscore Eastern's neglect of patients' needs, the suit also noted that although this was her 4th abortion, Venus had not been referred to a social worker.
Venus remained in a permanent vegetative state for the remainder of her life. She died in New York on December 16, 1998 at the age of 29.
Two other patients, Dawn Ravenelle and Dawn Mack, also died of complications of abortions done at Eastern Women's Center.
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A suit filed on Venus's behalf alleged that there was negligence in administering anesthesia to Venus, and failure to establish an airway. Brevital, fentanyl, and midazolam were administered in dosages and manners contrary to standards of practice, causing Venus to suffer a synergistic reaction.
Eastern's staff failed to promptly diagnose and attend to cardio-pulmonary arrest. Eastern's notes of 5:35 PM indicate "2:35 PM end of surgery ... we noticed patient's ashen color and the pulse oximeter tracing and digital readout were gone from the monitor." Emergency medical services were called. The reading of Venus' blood pressure at that time was 90/55; four minutes later it was recorded as being 146/62.
Venus was transported by ambulance to a hospital, accompanied by Dr. Cyrus, Dr. Goodman, and/or Dr. Jeffrey P. Moskowitz. However, the damage had already been done. Venus was left in permanent need of respirator, with profound brain damage. Venus remained in a coma/vegetative state. She was hospitalized a little over five months before being transferred to permanent nursing home care.
To further underscore Eastern's neglect of patients' needs, the suit also noted that although this was her 4th abortion, Venus had not been referred to a social worker.
Venus remained in a permanent vegetative state for the remainder of her life. She died in New York on December 16, 1998 at the age of 29.
Two other patients, Dawn Ravenelle and Dawn Mack, also died of complications of abortions done at Eastern Women's Center.
For more abortion deaths, visit the Cemetery of Choice:
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Tuesday, February 23, 2010
Today's searches: Nasty Philly abortionist and more
Enough for now!
Another abortion death recently uncovered
Frozen Fetuses Found During Doctor's Office Raid
I also found this article: Phila. doctor's license suspended amid abortion concerns
The unnamed woman, who I will call "Ameila" Roe, died on November 20, 2009. The medical board stated that the doctor, Kermit Gosnell, had an unlicensed staff member performing vaginal examinations and administering medications. It was reportedly this unlicensed staff member who administered 10 mg. Demerol, 12.5 mg Promethazine, and an undisclosed amount of Diazepam to Amelia -- prior to Gosnell's arrival at the clinic.
Amelia was given more drugs after Gosnell arrived because the patient reported cramping. The second link above said "75 mg of Demerol, 12.5 mg of promethazine, and 10 mg of diazepam, and later more anesthetic in preparation for the abortion." Gosnell did the abortion on her. Afterward Amelia went into ventricular fibrillation -- an abnormal heart rhythm -- and was pronounced dead at a hospital.
Gosnell's medical license has been suspended pending further investigation by the medical board. He is also under investigation for suspected illegal distribution of pain killers. The discovery of the fetuses was evidently a surprise to investigators, and is leading to an investigation of possible illegal late term abortions. See also Report: Fetuses found in doctor's office.
What's really bizarre about the news coverage is the degree to which it focuses on the frozen fetuses and gives short shrift to the dead woman.
Philadelphia and federal authorities who raided a doctor's office after allegations a woman died following an abortion made a shocking discovery: more than two dozen frozen fetuses.
I also found this article: Phila. doctor's license suspended amid abortion concerns
State authorities last night suspended the medical license of a West Philadelphia doctor whose practice was raided last week by federal drug agents.
The suspension, issued by the State Board of Medicine, came after a hours-long search of Kermit B. Gosnell's practice, Women's Medical Society, at 3801 Lancaster Ave. in Powelton Village.
The suspension order says the conditions of the clinic were "deplorable and unsanitary."
It states: "There was blood on the floor, and parts of aborted fetuses were displayed in jars."
The order calls Gosnell's continued practice of medicine "an immediate and clear danger to the public health and safety."
The unnamed woman, who I will call "Ameila" Roe, died on November 20, 2009. The medical board stated that the doctor, Kermit Gosnell, had an unlicensed staff member performing vaginal examinations and administering medications. It was reportedly this unlicensed staff member who administered 10 mg. Demerol, 12.5 mg Promethazine, and an undisclosed amount of Diazepam to Amelia -- prior to Gosnell's arrival at the clinic.
Amelia was given more drugs after Gosnell arrived because the patient reported cramping. The second link above said "75 mg of Demerol, 12.5 mg of promethazine, and 10 mg of diazepam, and later more anesthetic in preparation for the abortion." Gosnell did the abortion on her. Afterward Amelia went into ventricular fibrillation -- an abnormal heart rhythm -- and was pronounced dead at a hospital.
Gosnell's medical license has been suspended pending further investigation by the medical board. He is also under investigation for suspected illegal distribution of pain killers. The discovery of the fetuses was evidently a surprise to investigators, and is leading to an investigation of possible illegal late term abortions. See also Report: Fetuses found in doctor's office.
What's really bizarre about the news coverage is the degree to which it focuses on the frozen fetuses and gives short shrift to the dead woman.
Monday, February 22, 2010
Anniversary: Medically-recommended abortion kills patient
Barbara Hoppert was a sixteen-year-old high school sophomore when she checked into Loma Linda University Hospital for an abortion. She was in the second trimester of her pregnancy. She was having the abortion on the recommendation of her physician, because of a congenital heart condition.
The abortion was performed on February 22, 1983.
During the procedure, Barbara's heart stopped. Physicians were unable to revive her, and she was pronounced dead on the operating table.
The following comment was posted on the RealChoice blog:
Thanks to the woman who came forward to share this memory of Barbara.
Barbara's was not the only tragic death caused by doctors who recommended (or excused) abortion as a life-saving or health-preserving option for the mother:
For more information about "life of the mother" abortions, visit this post.
For more abortion deaths, visit the Cemetery of Choice:
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The abortion was performed on February 22, 1983.
During the procedure, Barbara's heart stopped. Physicians were unable to revive her, and she was pronounced dead on the operating table.
The following comment was posted on the RealChoice blog:
It's been almost 24 years since I was at the Loma Linda Hospital and was roomed with Barbara Hoppert, but not year goes by when Feb 22nd rolls around and I don't think of her. She died that day during her abortion procedure. I just now put her name into google and found your article on her. It was barely 4 sentences and seemed as cold as her death. She was once alive and had such a sad end and dramatic story. It still brings me to tears today thinking about her last night alive... how she was treated by her own family and the staff at the hospital. We watched Square Pegs that night on tv. And she told me about the boy who had impregnated her... She left early the next morning and I wished her good luck... An hour later a woman came to the room, later I found out that was her "real" mother whom Barbara thought was her sister. She missed seeing Barbara that one last time.... Barbara's story is very tragic. I am so very sad that she was so alone her last night alive. I was her only comfort and I was a complete stranger. Don't know how comforting I was other than I cried with her and listened.... Knowing the pain she was in.... She remains in my prayers. Just thought you should know she was more than just part of your cause.
Thanks to the woman who came forward to share this memory of Barbara.
Barbara's was not the only tragic death caused by doctors who recommended (or excused) abortion as a life-saving or health-preserving option for the mother:
- Allegra Roseberry was pushed into an abortion in order to obtain experimental cancer treatment.
- Anjelica Duarte sought an abortion on the advice of her physician, and ended up dying under the care of a quack.
- Christin Gilbert died after an abortion George Tiller holds was justified on grounds of maternal health.
- Erika Peterson died in 1961 when her doctors obtained her husband's permission to perform a "therapeutic" abortion.
- "Molly" Roe died in 1975 when her doctors made the dubious decision to perform a saline abortion to improve her chances of surviving a lupus crisis.
For more information about "life of the mother" abortions, visit this post.
For more abortion deaths, visit the Cemetery of Choice:
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Sunday, February 21, 2010
Today's Searches: 20 week abortions, and more
Obama gets failing grades on hopey-changey thingies
HT: Papa Mike's Blog
Though The One gives himself "a good, solid B+" as President, visitors to the CBS News website beg to differ. Here, for your visual inspection, were the results as of 9:41 a.m. Eastern Standard Time on Sunday, February 21, 2010:
The Economy: Yeah, it appears that whole Stimulus Thingie isn't going over all that well, with just over 70% of respondents giving the POTUS a failing grade.
I like how Scrapple Face covered "Cash for Clunkers" -- Clunker program spent, dealers to get government cheese.
Jobs are evaporating like the morning dew, welfare workers fear for their lives -- It appears that Obama is making progress on doing for the rest of the country as President what he did for Chicago as a Community Organizer.
Foreign Policy: Not quite as striking a failure -- Only about 62% of respondents gave The One a big fat F.
Bowing to some heads of state (and evidently to the Mayor of Tampa as well. Should we cut him some slack for evidently mistaking her for a Japanese dignitary?), giving tacky gifts to others, and ushering the Dali Lama out of the White House past trash bags piled up at the servants' entrance: none of these things seem to be impressing the American people. Obama acts like the redneck butt of a Jeff Foxworthy joke.
And this is just a look at the superficialities of his interactions with other nations.
Health Care: Sure the Anointed One gets an A for Effort on this one? Um, no. In fact, respondents think he is doing worse on health care than on the economy. Nearly 82% gave Obama an F.
Of course, this is probably the mixed bag of dissatisfaction -- Opponents of socialized medicine are just as ticked off at his attempts to push it through as proponents are at his failure to do so. This is one where he just can't win for losing.
If he had all the political savvy he thought he had, he'd never have launched this ship to begin with. He'd have started in less controversial waters, then gradually moved toward a total takeover, rather than simply launching into it with backroom deals and all the other shenanigans he'd promised to forgo.
Afghanistan and Iraq: Here we have nearly 17% agreeing with him that he's doing a B or better job on Afghanistan, and a little over 13% grading him a B or higher on Iraq. That still leaves us with 83% and 87%, respectively, thinking he's overestimated himself.
Roughly a third of the American people gave him failing grades.
And that's the best he scored on any area.
Threat of Terrorism: A little over 65% give Fearless Leader a failing grade.
With treating terrorists like ordinary, garden-variety criminals, Obama's administration is not giving people the sense that he takes terrorism seriously. Unless, of course, it's the "terrorism" of being a veteran, a prolifer, or a law-abiding owner of firearms.
The only thing that kept an airliner from being blown out of the sky on Christmas day was a Dutch filmmaker who had more wits about him singly than the entire intelligence community in aggregate. But, Obama's head of Homeland Security declared "The system worked." Yeah, it worked about as well as the Pantybomber's defective detonator. When real life plays out like a Buster Keaton movie, it's time to reassess how good a job your people are doing and how seriously they're taking it.
Energy and the Environment: Just under 60% think the President is failing. That's practically a ringing endorsement, considering the scores he's getting in other areas.
Still, people evidently don't think much of Obama's plan to tax the bejeebers out of domestic energy producers, or his twisted and expensive Cap and Trade plan.
Americans are working on expanding domestic production, and would no doubt appreciate it if the POTUS stayed out of the way.
Social Issues: Again, just under 60% giving Fearless Leader a failing grade.
Of course he's not going to be popular with the majority of Americans who oppose abortion. But he's not making any friends among moderate prochoicers, either, who are uncomfortable with his attempts to sneak tax-funded abortion into his health care plan.
It's not just the Right he's displeasing. Gay rights activists feel as if Obama hasn't followed through on promised support of their goals. Ditto for gun control advocates.
It seems Obama promised to be all things to all people, and has discovered that people are pissed off when he doesn't deliver.
Bipartisanship: Nearly 83% of respondents gave The Great Uniter a failing grade.
This is hardly a surprise. He did everything in his power to stifle disagreement during the election. Why would he behave any differently once he got into the White House?
Despite Obama's claims to the contrary, Republicans have put forth their own initiatives for health care reform. And people are getting wise to the way Obama claims that his opponents offer no solutions. They're realizing that what he means is "They don't simply cave in and do what I tell them to."
Overall?
I had thought that Obama's supporters were so blindly enamored of him that they'd blame themselves for his failures rather than admit to having bought a pig in a poke. This is one where I'm being proven wrong.
The people have spoken, and they say: "You suck."
Though The One gives himself "a good, solid B+" as President, visitors to the CBS News website beg to differ. Here, for your visual inspection, were the results as of 9:41 a.m. Eastern Standard Time on Sunday, February 21, 2010:
The Economy: Yeah, it appears that whole Stimulus Thingie isn't going over all that well, with just over 70% of respondents giving the POTUS a failing grade. I like how Scrapple Face covered "Cash for Clunkers" -- Clunker program spent, dealers to get government cheese.
Jobs are evaporating like the morning dew, welfare workers fear for their lives -- It appears that Obama is making progress on doing for the rest of the country as President what he did for Chicago as a Community Organizer.
Foreign Policy: Not quite as striking a failure -- Only about 62% of respondents gave The One a big fat F.Bowing to some heads of state (and evidently to the Mayor of Tampa as well. Should we cut him some slack for evidently mistaking her for a Japanese dignitary?), giving tacky gifts to others, and ushering the Dali Lama out of the White House past trash bags piled up at the servants' entrance: none of these things seem to be impressing the American people. Obama acts like the redneck butt of a Jeff Foxworthy joke.
And this is just a look at the superficialities of his interactions with other nations.
Health Care: Sure the Anointed One gets an A for Effort on this one? Um, no. In fact, respondents think he is doing worse on health care than on the economy. Nearly 82% gave Obama an F.Of course, this is probably the mixed bag of dissatisfaction -- Opponents of socialized medicine are just as ticked off at his attempts to push it through as proponents are at his failure to do so. This is one where he just can't win for losing.
If he had all the political savvy he thought he had, he'd never have launched this ship to begin with. He'd have started in less controversial waters, then gradually moved toward a total takeover, rather than simply launching into it with backroom deals and all the other shenanigans he'd promised to forgo.
Afghanistan and Iraq: Here we have nearly 17% agreeing with him that he's doing a B or better job on Afghanistan, and a little over 13% grading him a B or higher on Iraq. That still leaves us with 83% and 87%, respectively, thinking he's overestimated himself. Roughly a third of the American people gave him failing grades.
And that's the best he scored on any area.
Threat of Terrorism: A little over 65% give Fearless Leader a failing grade. With treating terrorists like ordinary, garden-variety criminals, Obama's administration is not giving people the sense that he takes terrorism seriously. Unless, of course, it's the "terrorism" of being a veteran, a prolifer, or a law-abiding owner of firearms.
The only thing that kept an airliner from being blown out of the sky on Christmas day was a Dutch filmmaker who had more wits about him singly than the entire intelligence community in aggregate. But, Obama's head of Homeland Security declared "The system worked." Yeah, it worked about as well as the Pantybomber's defective detonator. When real life plays out like a Buster Keaton movie, it's time to reassess how good a job your people are doing and how seriously they're taking it.
Energy and the Environment: Just under 60% think the President is failing. That's practically a ringing endorsement, considering the scores he's getting in other areas.Still, people evidently don't think much of Obama's plan to tax the bejeebers out of domestic energy producers, or his twisted and expensive Cap and Trade plan.
Americans are working on expanding domestic production, and would no doubt appreciate it if the POTUS stayed out of the way.
Social Issues: Again, just under 60% giving Fearless Leader a failing grade.Of course he's not going to be popular with the majority of Americans who oppose abortion. But he's not making any friends among moderate prochoicers, either, who are uncomfortable with his attempts to sneak tax-funded abortion into his health care plan.
It's not just the Right he's displeasing. Gay rights activists feel as if Obama hasn't followed through on promised support of their goals. Ditto for gun control advocates.
It seems Obama promised to be all things to all people, and has discovered that people are pissed off when he doesn't deliver.
Bipartisanship: Nearly 83% of respondents gave The Great Uniter a failing grade.This is hardly a surprise. He did everything in his power to stifle disagreement during the election. Why would he behave any differently once he got into the White House?
Despite Obama's claims to the contrary, Republicans have put forth their own initiatives for health care reform. And people are getting wise to the way Obama claims that his opponents offer no solutions. They're realizing that what he means is "They don't simply cave in and do what I tell them to."
Overall?I had thought that Obama's supporters were so blindly enamored of him that they'd blame themselves for his failures rather than admit to having bought a pig in a poke. This is one where I'm being proven wrong.
The people have spoken, and they say: "You suck."